The great 'Frostbite' debate

Use this forum to discuss matters relating to Agave, Beschorneria, Furcraea, Hesperaloe, Hesperoyucca, Manfreda, Polianthes, Yucca and related species. This is where one posts unknown plant photos for ID help.
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Gee.S
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The great 'Frostbite' debate

#1

Post by Gee.S »

I am none too sure from what lineage A. xylonacantha 'Frostbite' hails, but I am reasonably certain it isn't A. xylonacantha. Thin, flat 'Frostbite' leaves, which lack the continuous corneous margin that characterizes Marginatae, with small marginal spines atop small, regular teats bear virtually no resemblance to thick, rigid and guttered xylonacantha leaves, with 'broadly flattened 3-5 cuspid 8-15 mm marginals'. 'Frostbite' bears a far greater resemblance to univittata, IMO, particularly the heteracantha form, although a corneous margin deficiency might suggest some manner of heteracantha hybrid. Here are a few photos from plants in my collection. Additional photographic evidence is welcome.
A. xylonacantha 'Frostbite'
A. xylonacantha 'Frostbite'
frostbite 002.JPG (155.9 KiB) Viewed 1505 times
A. xylonacantha 'Frostbite'
A. xylonacantha 'Frostbite'
frostbite 003.JPG (130.01 KiB) Viewed 1505 times
A. heteracantha (= A. univittata) features thin, flat leaves w/regular marginals
A. heteracantha (= A. univittata) features thin, flat leaves w/regular marginals
frostbite 015.JPG (156.48 KiB) Viewed 1505 times
A. heteracantha (= A. univittata)
A. heteracantha (= A. univittata)
frostbite 010.JPG (100.7 KiB) Viewed 1505 times
A. heteracantha (= A. univittata)
A. heteracantha (= A. univittata)
frostbite 013.JPG (138.67 KiB) Viewed 1505 times
A. xylonacantha features thick, rigid and guttered leaves w/irregular marginals
A. xylonacantha features thick, rigid and guttered leaves w/irregular marginals
frostbite 016.JPG (195.72 KiB) Viewed 1505 times
A. xylonacantha
A. xylonacantha
frostbite 018.JPG (120.46 KiB) Viewed 1505 times
A. xylonacantha
A. xylonacantha
frostbite 020.JPG (156.45 KiB) Viewed 1505 times
A. xylonacantha
A. xylonacantha
frostbite 021.JPG (94.96 KiB) Viewed 1505 times
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: The great 'Frostbite' debate

#2

Post by Gee.S »

Here is a fine article that discusses A. heteracantha/A. xylonacantha: Agave xylonacantha Salm Dyck and heteracantha Berger
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: The great 'Frostbite' debate

#3

Post by AGAVE_KILLER »

I don't know that there is much of a debate, I don't think an answer can be found, so it may be a fruitless pursuit.

From Gentry lophantha description:

"Some wide-leaved forms of A. lophantha with margins crenate with large teats look very much like A. xylonacantha, and indeed may be inseparable. The teeth of A. lophantha are consistently more slender and more closely set than in A. lechuguilla and A. xylonacantha, and resemble more the fine teeth of the straight-margined A. funkiana. These four taxa comprise a closely related complex."

From Gentry xylonacantha description:

"Agave xylonacantha is related to A. lophantha, its highly convoluted leaf margins with large flattened, multicuspid teeth being like an exaggeration of a character started by A. lophantha (see detail in Fig. 7.23). Indeed, some shade forms in the San Luis Potosf lowlands are difficult to designate as one or the other."

Perhaps the seed came from the SLP lowlands.

However, there may be room for debate on the use of the heteracantha epithet -- that is an old synonym for lophantha/univittata -- perhaps useful in a casual capacity, but not a valid nomen, right?
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Re: The great 'Frostbite' debate

#4

Post by Gee.S »

I thought I indicated very clearly it is not a valid nomen, apologies if that was unclear, but it is a useful name in that it refers to an easily recognized form of univittata. And you're right of course, we'll never identify what it is with any certainty. But I believe it's fairly safe to say what 'Frostbite' is not, and that is a variegated form of a plant it bears virtually no resemblance to.

And I suspect the seed came from someone's basement. I have several forms of univittata and xylonacantha, I could tell them apart with my eyes closed. I am quite familiar with the bible passages quoted above, HSG may be referring to the heteracantha form, or perhaps another that never found it's way to cultivation. In any case, forms that never found their way to cultivation are likely not behind the lineage of 'Frostbite'.

Here is another Gentry quote from A. xylonacantha, with irreconcilable differences bolded:
Single or cespitose, short-stemmed, openly spreading rosettes with long tapering, freely seeding spikes. Leaves 45-90 x 5-10 cm, ensiform-lanceolate, broadest through the middle, long-acuminate, rather rigid, plane to concave above, explanate in shade, rounded below, green to yellowish green, sometimes glaucous, with or without pale center stripe; margin continously corneous, straight between remote prominent teats, but looping over the teats; teeth broadly flattened, thickly capping the broad teats, frequently 3-5-cuspid, commonly 2-5 cm apart, 8-15 mm long, light gray; spine 2.5-5 cm long, trigonous-subulate, stout, flat to slightly grooved above, keeled below, light gray;
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: The great 'Frostbite' debate

#5

Post by Paul S »

I guess whether or not the name is valid is whether you a/ agree and b/ recognise the publication 'Succulenta' as a valid paper in which to publish such a thing. It is certainly a useful tag for a cultivated plant that is 'reasonably' consistent. Well, apart from the inconsistencies, anyway.

Mr Serrano, as our intrepid 'marginatae' hunters, I propose that you and Mr Starr do a trip to examine all univittata populations. :)
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Re: The great 'Frostbite' debate

#6

Post by AGAVE_KILLER »

Pshaw, I can handle impossible problems, but will pass on Sisyphean tasks.
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Re: The great 'Frostbite' debate

#7

Post by DesertDweller »

These are interesting looking plants, if not much else. I'm not a huge fan of A. univittata nor xylonacantha, but still fell off the wagon and bought one of these 'Frostbite' plants not too long ago, just because they look so different. :D

For the curious, Summerwinds on Bethany Home still has about a half dozen of these kicking around. ;)

Question to those that have more experience with it: how have you found the offsetting behavior? Supposedly solitary but I've seen mention of occasional pupping. Curious what folks here have found?
A. xylonacantha (?) 'Frostbite'
A. xylonacantha (?) 'Frostbite'
IMG_9078.JPG (94.39 KiB) Viewed 1406 times
A. xylonacantha (?) 'Frostbite'
A. xylonacantha (?) 'Frostbite'
IMG_9083.JPG (83.48 KiB) Viewed 1406 times
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Re: The great 'Frostbite' debate

#8

Post by Gee.S »

No offseting here.
Agave
"American aloe plant," 1797, from Greek Agaue, proper name in mythology (mother of Pentheus), from agauos "noble," perhaps from agasthai "wonder at".

"Some talk the talk, others walk the walk, but I stalk the stalk"
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Re: The great 'Frostbite' debate

#9

Post by Spination »

Same here.
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Re: The great 'Frostbite' debate

#10

Post by Melt in the Sun »

Mine never did either. Keep it where rabbits can't get it - they finally killed mine this summer.
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Re: The great 'Frostbite' debate

#11

Post by DesertDweller »

Decided to pull a bit of thread necromancy and share an interesting update, since the topic of offsetting came up.

While there is surely some shenanigans going on here, I thought these were pretty cool looking. No idea how it happened, but only two were doing this, the rest were normal:
IMG_6554.JPG
IMG_6554.JPG (91.7 KiB) Viewed 1143 times
IMG_6555.JPG
IMG_6555.JPG (89.53 KiB) Viewed 1143 times
IMG_6558.JPG
IMG_6558.JPG (95.11 KiB) Viewed 1143 times
IMG_6557.JPG
IMG_6557.JPG (89.51 KiB) Viewed 1143 times
IMG_6556.JPG
IMG_6556.JPG (102.17 KiB) Viewed 1143 times
Yes, I was tempted. No, I did not buy either of them, or the A. 'Blue Ember' to the right of them. D))
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Re: The great 'Frostbite' debate

#12

Post by abborean »

freaky occasional offsetting caused by TC? Some of the Shady Oaks plants offset despite the taxon being considered non-offsetting.
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